26 September 2006
Who is becoming Orthodox? I don't know what the real numbers show but anecdotally I can see the greatest influx of converts coming from the Anglican / Episcopal communions and young people in general.
It's not difficult to see why Episcopalians are out looking for something else. Their communion has been annihilated by the most tragic deviations from the Word of God and the Holy Traditions of the Church; legitimizing homosexual sin, installing priestesses and female bishops. Francis Schaeffer mentions in one of his talks about attending a mass at an Episcopal church where geese (or some similar avian creatures) were given the Eucharist. YIKES!!! (Too bad the Episcopals do not use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. "Holy things for the holy people of God." might have helped them out with that one.) At some point these folks figure out that, as we say down here in the South, somethin' ain't right and they discover Orthodoxy.
But why so many young people from all different faith backgrounds? I have a theory (the work of the Holy Spirit presupposed, of course!). I think our young people are not as easily swayed as the generation that gave us Madison Avenue. I think they have been bombarded with so much propaganda, spin and flat-out deception in their young lives that they have had to learn to sort through it all. Many of our young people have learned to separate and identify the truth from the message. When stumbling across or otherwise given the opportunity to examine Orthodoxy, and especially Orthodox worship, they find it to be the real deal. The authentic faith maintained by the authentic Church isn't so hard to hide from this saavy group.
What are you seeing in your specific situations? Thoughts?
Posts
29 comments:
I am noticing an influx of young people (mainly through the internet). However, in my small world it seems there are many women exploring Orthodoxy without their spouses. When I first started this 6 years ago there didn't seem to be hardly any women in my shoes.
Deb
At my OCA parish we are seeing a lot of converts come in. As you say, many are young, under 30. Others are middle aged. The largest single group, though, are former Roman Catholics, with former Evangelicals close behind. We have had some Episcopalians, too, and an older Episcopal priest in the area is waiting until he retires and has his pension secured to be received. I think that the actual make up of groups of converts may depend on the region of the country. We have lots of Catholics in this area, so it makes sense that lots of our converts would be Catholic.
Wow...OXWOMS at your parish, Deb. That would be an encouragement for those like us traveling without our spouses...and you must surely be an encouragement to them as well.
Frances...Roman Catholic converts! That is interesting.
We live in the buckle of the Bible Belt...a Baptist church on just about every other street corner. (our subdivision is way out in the country...at the intersection of two roads which lead to no where...and we have a Baptist church right across the street!) But...no Baptists showing up at our parish to convert.
Our parish is in a college town though and that may account for the large number of young new converts we have. I jumped to my conclusion by linking what I see in real life with what I read on the Internet. It is quite interesting to hear what everyone else is seeing at their parishes.
I started out in a Salvation Army mission church then went to Southern Baptist, then ELCA, and looked at the Episcopal briefly before a friend led me to Orthodoxy. My wife’s journey roughly paralleled my own except she started from a Methodist and Roman Catholic background.
We have visited the Episcopal church since becoming catechumens and found it to be very empty. It felt hollow. Ironically I have good friend who is an Episcopal priest. He often quotes Orthodox fathers on his blog and has a Pantokrator icon hanging in the church. His church is two minutes from the house while the Orthodox church is an hour each way.
I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head when you said, “When stumbling across or otherwise given the opportunity to examine Orthodoxy, and especially Orthodox worship, they find it to be the real deal. The authentic faith maintained by the authentic Church isn't so hard to hide from this savvy group.” I think it probably applies across all age groups if they are willing to have an open mind. I think most people dismiss Orthodoxy because they either think they understand Orthodoxy and really don’t or they have not been exposed to it in a meaningful way. It is amazing to me how something so traditional, so ancient can be so relevant and so timely.
As for our parish, the first person we met was a former Methodist minister and one of our priests is a former Episcopal priest. We are probably split at about half cradle Orthodox and half converts which makes a nice balance.
And by the way, thanks for your much too nice remarks. You do a terrific job of expressing yourself and exploring your faith on your blog. We are so few and far between here in the deep South it’s nice to find a kindred spirit.
Great posts and comments. If I may, I'd add:
As someone who's knocked around an active church life for some time but only recently stumbled into Orthodoxy, the relative youth struck me right off. It's great! Commitment, sacrifice and living for eternity (rather than the moment) - all could have come as almost a counter-cultural phenomenon - but instead they simply take it in stride. This is just the way it is supposed to be. And I'll wager this coming generation is as great as any this country's ever produced. Just wait!
But the contrast with any adult speaker or school-sanctioned student at a high school graduation couldn't be more "out there". Perhaps any kid willing to buck the prevailing ethic has probably got the gumption to brave the incense, the icons, the funny hats, the scarey chants and find his or her way in here. One look, one listen, one liturgy: It's very clear very fast that folks wouldn't mess with this stuff and stand on their feet for an hour-and-a-half and more in worship if they felt it was all some sort of put-up job. So perhaps it's the "faith or flee" syndrome? 'Cause I'm just not getting the idea there's a lot of a luke warm folks here. Indeed, I think the converts tend to be those who've knocked around christianity for some time. Though I'm not sure it fits Sinatra's "Second Time Around" theme song..this ain't a first "puppy" love either, but a true and mature love. And this is something you can't get from a bottle, you can't fake, and you can't market. Fact is....it sells itself.
Comparing note: At my parish, we're mostly ex-episkies, ex-RC's, and ex-evangelicals....but the common thread is that like any stray sheep, somehow we all got pushed to the edge of our flocks before we wandered and were found. I wish we had some born-to's but I don't think we do.
Finally, as a newbie, I just look at these young converts and their children and think how fortunate they are to find this church in their youth. As an "oldster" I feel fortunate for the promise and prayers they offer. For indeed, I feel like Symeon must have felt and am relieved, and thankful to find that at last I'm waiting on the Lord in the right temple!
Sorry it took so long to get back here...I am traveling this week for work.
Good to see your comments, NiMY, and very happy to meet a fellow southern Orthodox. I agree we are a rare breed. When I first was convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy (and I admit that I had made this assessment before I even stepped one foot inside an Orthodox Church) I thought I would have to drive an hour and a half to church each way. Imagine my incredible surprise at finding an Orthodox Church only 10 minutes from our house-in the South!
I went to Midnight worship at the Lutheran Church with my husband last Christmas Eve and I know exactly what you mean when you speak of "hollow". That is what I experienced. It was after going through that experience when the expression the "fullness of the Truth" tooks on an added dimension for me. Francis Schaeffer reports his son observing episcopal workship after having attended several Orthodox DLs, "it's like they are play acting."
James...I want to comment on some great points you brought up but I have to meet a colleague and if I tarry here any longer I will be late...so I will catch up as soon as I can...maybe while waiting for my plane this evening...if not, then tomorrow.
After being Lutheran since birth and a Lutheran pastor (LCMS) for 33 years, my wife and I came home in February of this year. Actually, I was Orthodox in spirit several years ago.
We do see a number of converts at our Greek Orthodox parish, many of them young, some, like us, older. In most cases they are seeking the Truth.
Truth is that Lutherans of any stripe are pretty much in the same situation as Episcopalians -- that which is supposedly confessed (the Book of Concord with its documents) is not lived. Litrugy, well, is up for grabs. And there are truly no Fathers, heirarchically or in terms of the Fathers (you hear of them only by accident).
One contrast: to be Orthodox involves the whole of life -- joined in Christ in His Church. It is more about prayer that is lived than a little "personal knowledge," if you know what I mean.
What a joy to see young families teaching their children the faith through praying and living it, and what a joy to see whole families approach to receive the Blessed Mysteries.
But, to become Orthodox is to ask very hard questions, and to pray as never before, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me, a sinner"
Ezekiel+
To echo some other comments... I have to say that one of the first things I noticed about orthodox worship was that it felt like real worship, compaired to my Methodist background. What really convinced me that I was in the right place was after attending my first Pascha service. The celebration and joy experienced durring and after that service found no comparison with my protestant past and confirmed what I allways thought. The reason the early church drew converts was Christ's resurection, not his birth (which always recieved much more attention in church than did Easter).
James, every time you post you bring such great food for thought!
And I'll wager this coming generation is as great as any this country's ever produced. Just wait!
I can’t agree with you more…but then they had a great example of all the wrong ways to go about things with my generation! (And trust me…I was an active, erring participant. Thankfully, a little wisdom comes with age.)
'Cause I'm just not getting the idea there's a lot of a luke warm folks here. Indeed, I think the converts tend to be those who've knocked around christianity for some time.
Yes…this is something else I have observed…at least from my little slice of the Orthodox world. Converts that come are battle weary. They have searched for the Truth long and hard…but to see them shed that weariness upon finding the Church is such a joy!
There was a young family that came to our Lutheran Wednesday evening service once. He had just come out of a “home church” situation. The pastor introduced me to him and suggested he contact me if he ever wanted to discuss Lutheran theology. Fast forward about 6 months and I go to my first catechumen class…one young man looks up and says, “Hey, I know you. You are the Theology Lady!” He then went on to explain that he didn’t tarry at the Lutheran church because at the time he was convinced he had to find a church that believed in premillennial dispensationism. See what a good hard search for the Truth can do…he had to give all that up!!! The wonderful thing…their second born was just “churched” last Sunday.
Finally, as a newbie, I just look at these young converts and their children and think how fortunate they are to find this church in their youth. As an "oldster" I feel fortunate for the promise and prayers they offer. For indeed, I feel like Symeon must have felt and am relieved, and thankful to find that at last I'm waiting on the Lord in the right temple!
You and I are kindred spirits in this. I, too, regret the lateness in my arrival…especially because of our children, but nonetheless rejoice to have found the Truth. Like Symeon, now I can depart in peace.
Ezekiel+, thank you for your comments and welcome!
I read your story on Pontifications and it came at a time when I needed to see it. When a woman my age determines she needs to convert to Orthodoxy without her husband of 2o plus years...she has to employ a few checks and balances to make sure its not just mid-life raging hormones kicking in. Of course, my priest helped in this but reading about other Lutheran converts, particularly former pastors, was comforting. I have a special place in my heart for former LCMS pastors who have come home to the Church. Y'all are in my daily prayers.
Anon, what you say reminds me of a catechumen we had in our parish before he transferred to pursue a masters degree elsewhere. He said he had loved God all his life but never truly worshipped until he attended a Divine Liturgy.
Who is becoming Orthodox? I do not see any over-arching trends, but here in the South it seems to be mainly evangelicals, who, like Archbishop Dmitri once quipped, "just want the rest of their church." Frankly I am seeing more of this than Episcopal refugees. Now , I also want to make note of perhaps a micro-trend within the evangelical group. Orthodoxy is gaining traction with a number of former members of the Church of Christ. Such is the case with me, and a suprising number of familiar voices from the Orthodox blogging community fall into this category. I do know one thing, bearing witness for the Faith is a whole lot easier now. Nobody ever wanted to know why I was a member of the Church of Christ. Seems like everybody is interested to know why I am now Orthodox.
Wow...OXWOMS at your parish, Deb. That would be an encouragement for those like us traveling without our spouses...and you must surely be an encouragement to them as well.
There are many OXWOMS of different stripes at my church and there were several before I even came. As of next week we will have two Catechumens at our church and both are women coming without their husbands. But, what I really meant was in the Orthodox world as a whole not just my parish - sorry for the confusion. Perhaps it is because more women are willing to follow their husbands and vice versa? I don't know why.
Whoops - that was me, Deb - darn blogger won't let me login.
Deb
I was received into the Church just this morning. I'm a former Baptipcostal, 50-something, empty-nester, OXWOM who just had had enough of the circus of evangelicalism. I think the majority of members in the small mission parish I attend are converts from the evangelical churches. Quite a few are young, with small children, some are college students. It seems in most cases, the move was very thought-out and extensively researched. I know mine was.
Dixie, I really identify with wondering whether your decision to convert had anything to do with midlife issues. I had to grapple with that, too. In some ways, I think that it does. When one hits that stage of life, mortality and thus, eternity seems much closer and we take a harder look at faith issues. Glory to God!
Caladonia Sun:
You hit it on the head. But hey...as these midlife crisis thingies go, seems you could do a lot worse.
Such an interesting array of comments. Kudos Dixie and everyone else on such a respectful, adult conversation.
I would only add that I think, from my experience and that many of the converts to Orthodoxy know what they are looking for, they just didn't know where to find it. Most of us knew there was something missing, we just weren't sure exactly what it was. Most of us have invested a great deal of energy into our spiritual walk and time and again found ourselves on the wrong path. Let's face it, unless you know someone who is Orthodox, you have to actively seek out the Orthodox Church. It's the last place most of us thought we would ever be.
Thank you all for sharing your stories. It's good to know I'm not the only one who took a very circutious path to the truth.
I was received into the Church just this morning. I'm a former Baptipcostal, 50-something, empty-nester, OXWOM who just had had enough of the circus of evangelicalism.
Welcome home my dear friend. I didn't know we had someone from OXWOM being Chrismated this weekend. Congratulations. I know it can be difficult - you're on top of the world and the most important people in your life just don't realize the enormity of it all. Big hugs!!
Deb
that many of the converts to Orthodoxy know what they are looking for, they just didn't know where to find it. Most of us knew there was something missing, we just weren't sure exactly what it was.
Amen, Amen, Amen.
Deb
John, why do you think the Church is attracting members of the Church of Christ? That is very interesting!
Caldonia Sun!!! I am so happy for you that you are now joined to the Church! Great news. I wish I had something appropriately Orthodox to say but I don't know if I am suppose to say "Axios" or "Many Years"...heck, I haven't even had my first cup of coffee yet! :)
I can't say it was eternity staring me in the face that motivated me...I honestly don't know what it was.
William writes: Most of us have invested a great deal of energy into our spiritual walk and time and again found ourselves on the wrong path. And this describes it perfectly for me. I stayed in the Lutheran church but I dabbled...you know...attended Joyce Meyer meetings, watched TV evangelists, read books by Pentacostals, chased after contemporary Christian music. Searching, frantically searching...but coming up empty. It wasn't until I finally decided I needed to just stay where I was and learn to be Lutheran that the true path began to take shape. Because it was in trying to be Lutheran that I learned about Orthodoxy
But here's the rub. In the process of all that frenetic searching I earned the reputation of a spiritual "flake" with all my friends. Oh...they all know that I am serious about the Faith, about my relationship with God...but they have seen me hop around so often with this new idea or that, they aren't convinced this move to Orthodoxy is "the move"...is the final place. They think it is just another phase.
I can try to explain the difference but my history precedes me. So...only time will convince them. That's OK though. Orthodoxy is the end of the line. There is no place left to go after this. And thank goodness...no need to go anywhere else either!
"..but they have seen me hop around so often with this new idea or that, they aren't convinced this move to Orthodoxy is "the move"...is the final place."
Call us unstable? I think that's the specific term the seasoned use to describe newbies. "Rrrrr, so unstable we be? Rrrrr. Must be a checkered past that floats me timbers." Oops. Sorry 'bout the random pirate.
Nope. Nobody unstable here. We're all fully adjusted, well-balanced peg-leggers for the moment....though if that doggone parrot lands on me bloomin' shoulder....things could start tippin'. "Rrrrrr".
Fact is, I think we just have to put down some roots to prove that the love affair with Orthodoxy is more than simply being in love with love.
Kind of reminds me of those youthful days in my twenties when - to reverse the "never trust anyone over 30" - one of my co-workers said, "I guess you just have to be over 30 before anyone takes you seriously."
Well....that's one I've got licked...and then some. :)
I converted many years ago from the Bapticostal movement when youth and curiosity brought me to the Church. The transition was easy, until the rest of my Bapticostal family began to realize what the conversion meant, and how it began to slowly change my life. Now, we are forced to deal with constant digs and swipes - the family thinks we are RC's and will soon "come to our senses", but we have been Orthodox now for nearly 20 years. Thanks be to God we HAVE come to our senses!
Most of the growth I see at our Antiochian parish is from young college aged people and older empty nesters. They come from all backgrounds - COC, Episcopalians, Lutherans, RC's, UnChurched - and they have differing reasons why they came. Most seem to say they were drawn to the Church in an inexplicable way - almost by an unseen hand - and they have never looked back.
The youth - the "survivors of the post modern movement" if you will - seem to be the most hungry for the Word. That inner hunger that cannot be satisifed with foods of the flesh is what makes these kids come. That knowledge there is something more than gratification and the now, and that life and traditional ways of living are more staisfying and fulfilling - to the eternal shock and anger of the Boomer/Madison Avenue set. Glory be to God!
Beautifully written, Herman. That your family, 20 years later, is still waiting for you to "come to your senses"...isn't so much of a surprise...considering where they are. But that they think there is still hope you'll come around makes me think the passage of time isn't going to be the witness of "anti-flakiness" I was expecting it to be!
Most seem to say they were drawn to the Church in an inexplicable way - almost by an unseen hand - and they have never looked back.
I love this...I am in constant awe at the work of the Holy Spirit bringing people to the Church. And it does seem inexplicable indicating none other than the work of God! All Glory to Him!
I have really enjoyed reading these accounts. Certain phrases just leap out at me:
"they find it to be the real deal"
"The authentic faith maintained by the authentic Church"
"it sells itself"
"involves the whole of life"
"It is more about prayer that is lived than a little "personal knowledge"
"it felt like real worship"
"Most of us knew there was something missing"
"Most...say they were drawn to the Church in an inexplicable way...and they have never looked back"
I suppose if I were to sum it up in one word, for me, it would have to be "authenticity." And that is what I found in the Orthodox Church, its worship, its prayer, indeed its life. No more playing church. This is the real thing.
Dixie,
You asked why I think the Orthodox Church is attracting some members of the Church of Christ. I don't want to go off into a detailed history of the COC, but I believe it has to do with how the COC sees itself. It is a Restorationist body, believing that the church "fell away" and that they have "restored" it. The "restoration" is based on their particular way of interpreting scripture. Well, some in the COC study their way through this, like myself, and determine that Restorationism is bunk. Once that is lost, the whole edifice starts to crumble. But back to the main point--the COC emphasizes what they call "simple New Testament Christianity," being Christians only and nothing more, and being that church of the First Century "restored." Officially, they claim to be undenominational and not even Protestant. Privately, most will equivocate on this and some will admit this is bunk, also. But the idea of leaping back past all the denominations spawned in the Reformation and going back to the original church is one that the COC still holds dear. A few are beginning to realize that the Restoration principle, based on a particular Enlightment slant of sola scriptura just doesn't work, and when confronted with Orthodoxy realize that there is no need to "restore" anything--its been here all along! Their goal has been in place, they have just been approaching it from the wrong angle. You might say that COC members are somewhat primed for the Orthodox Church, if only they knew about it! Unfortunately, membership, by and large, is tradition-bound, and the spirit of inquiry is hardly encouraged. But this may be changing.
I could name about 5 blogs that would be familiar to most readers here, all of whom have COC backgrounds. I encounter people online in the COC, working their way towards Orthodoxy. When I attended the Festival of Orthodoxy in Dallas in February 2005 (held at the very large Greek church), the one person I really met was a member who was a former COC deacon. (I am a former COC elder). And there are other examples I could give--nothing quantifiable, but I do believe I am seeing something of a trend, conditioned as it were, on the presuppositions that COC members start with. Anyway, that's my theory.
I don’t think the young are any less immune to the sins of their elders. It’s the nature of youth to look for the most counter-establishment expression of things. I guess that they are turning to orthodoxy in itself in an indictment.
But God is kind of known for taking advantage of our human foibles for His purposes. Abandoning roots seems to be a prerogative of the young, the confused or the unstable, up until now. My roots have been in the same place near 50 years. I am well past midlife crisis territory and being unstable doesn't seem to apply either (though I am sure some would dispute this).
Watching the True Gospel being ripped up by its roots, strange doctrines grafted in, and having the soil that has nurtured my faith turn to dry, rocky sterile soil left me no choice except to leave.
I don't have it in me to be a martyr, committing spiritual suicide for the sake of UNITY. And God forgive me, if true, as I have been accused, of deserting the post of the lonely, but necessary, voice, crying in this wilderness of what could “become heresy” without the balance of a more conservative orthodox voice. I had been convinced I would be abandoning those who are falling prey to what is preached now presented as "gospel" and that kept me in my place long after I should have gone.
Early on it may have been naivety, but after that it was pride, the same hubris that felled Adam, when I thought it was in my power to preserve even one soul from being swept away by what I thought was a new and insidious evil.
But I have been humbled and reminded Salvation is God's work, and the only way I can hope to participate is by working out my own salvation in a community that prays and worships faithfully.
That is the only way God has ever promised to be present among us. The concept of the "invisible" church is another manifest of pride. An individual, a remnant, a single congregation cannot remain unsullied while still remaining "in communion" with desecrate everything in sight. That includes bishops, priests, and the innocent and not so innocent sheep that follow them, even if your own flesh and blood is counted among them. We are mystically connected in ways we cannot begin to understand. We can bring ruin as well as blessing to those around us.
This may sound harsh, but behind these words is a crushed, broken heart and spirit, that needs even more repentance, tears without number, and doubt and fear that I have confessed and been forgiven over and over again. God grant that I will not weary of rising from fall after fall, or loose faith when it seems that I am better acquainted with the dust than the sky.
Being so intimate with the insidious process of how small, and seemly innocuous changes always lead to what we have in most of the mainline protestant churches, I looked around long and hard when I knew I would have to I could no longer stay and survive spiritually in the place of my spiritual roots. I don’t think I even need to specify a denomination; we have no corner sin.
I must admit my first experience with Orthodoxy was shattering, in the way that any encounter with the True God should be shattering. I resisted and still resist, and must repent of daily. Some days I despair that I have lost the ability to trust anyone or anything to remain True, and that distrust has reach to God, Himself.
The panic and fear gripping the mainline denominations over dwindling funds and membership gave rise to (mostly) well meaning, but misguided voices that spoke of the flimsy foundation beneath all Orthodoxy's smells and bells. They told me all I would find under that gold and glitter would be a ethnic and theological ghetto, whose inhabitants appear faithful, but in reality are just too proud and stubborn to loosen their death grip on their "old world" ways and their unholy grudge against the Latin west.
I fear... no, more than fear... live in sheer terror that the lack of a central Authority in the East will leave Orthodoxy wide open to the errors that have befallen every church that had planted itself in the American culture.
But looking West, I can't see how that "authority" is making much difference in the church in America. I see a faithful Pope, keeping a pure infrastructure of a "visible church" and sincerely trying to take steps to retrace steps taken over many years that left it in chaos; But close to home I see that even armed with Truth and Power, a most Godly, Holy and Loving Pope seems unable to provide for the souls under his keeping, leaving them to the mercy of whatever locally established heresy has not grown large and threatening enough to attract time resources and attention needed needed to correct it.
I also despair that I could live, commune, die and be buried in a church and never lay eyes on a priest. This is a phenomenon that is growing in the West and I can't, for the life of me, understand why more people aren't questioning it.
That is where I am at in my conversion. Not very far, but God is merciful. That is the only reason for my hope.
sorry for the length.
I would like to respond to some of Magdalene's heartfelt concerns. First, let me say that I am a recent convert to Orthodoxy and am well past 50, so midlife crises weren't an issue for me. In my case, the crisis in the Episcopal Church led me to reading which revealed (to my great astonishment!) that I had been Orthodox in my beliefs all my adult life. After a year and a half of reading and praying and worshipping in various Orthodox churches, I left my Episcopal parish and began worshipping in a wonderful OCA parish. I was chrismated last April.
I think that Magdalene's fears about the decentralized nature of the Orthodox Church are based on a false assumption--that centralized authorities are more conservative than decentralized ones. Actually, from a political science standpoint the reverse is true! HOwever, I think that the important thing to look at is not "theories" of which church should be most stable, but historical evidence. On issue after issue, where the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches differ, it is the Roman Catholic Church which has changed, not the Orthodox. (I'm thinking of such things as the "filioque," infant confirmation and communion, communion in both kinds, married clergy, and so on.) In other words, history suggests that the Orthodox Church has been much more resistant to the religious fads of different time periods than the Roman Catholic Church has.
As for worrying about ethnic enclaves, etc., I think that is a very understandable concern and I had it, too. Different parishes differ in the extent to which they are welcoming to "outsiders." I don't know where you live, but I would suggest visiting several parishes if possible to get a feel for this. Also, many Orthodox parishes and priests are very comfortable with people who visit for a very long time indeed without becoming cathecumens. My major recommendation would be to find one or more Orthodox parishes and just start visiting, listening to the sermons, participating in adult Christian education, and let the Holy Spirit guide you in the direction He would have you go.
...but I believe it has to do with how the COC sees itself. It is a Restorationist body, believing that the church "fell away" and that they have "restored" it. The "restoration" is based on their particular way of interpreting scripture. ...the COC emphasizes what they call "simple New Testament Christianity," being Christians only and nothing more, and being that church of the First Century "restored." Officially, they claim to be undenominational and not even Protestant. Privately, most will equivocate on this and some will admit this is bunk, also. But the idea of leaping back past all the denominations spawned in the Reformation and going back to the original church is one that the COC still holds dear.
Oh...this makes so much sense...particularly to a former Lutheran!!! You see, Lutherans, while they acknowledge that they are the "original" protestants also do not claim they are protestant, rather Lutherans say they are "the Church".(Although don't try to press too hard on what is the Church...you'll just get that "where the sacraments are rightly administered and the Word rightly preached" diagnostic. The problem with that who determines what is right? Even within Lutheranism there is little agreement on that.)
Rather than using the verb "restore"...the Lutherans took the verb "reform". Either way the idea seams the same...the Church took off down the wrong road and we brought her back.
And like you...once I was instructed that this was the position of the Lutheran church...that it was the Church rightly reformed...and I started studying...I came to the same conclusion. The problem wasn't that "the Church" needed reforming or restoring, but rather the people needed to be joined to the Church, who has been here all along. I could see how this may not have been so obvious in the 16th century West but in the 21st, it's harder to ignore if one genuinely seeks.
I am glad to hear that many CoCers have found their way Home. Although there certainly have been a number of Lutheran converts to Orthodoxy...it appears not as many as from the Anglican church. A lot of ELCA Lutherans go to Rome. That is an obvious choice for them as the ELCA has generally done a better job of preserving the liturgy and attachments (vestments, incense, etc.) than the other major flavors of Lutheranism (even if the ELCA caved on female ordination, homosexuality and rest of the litany of woes plaguing liberal Christianity).
I haven't had time to spend time at your blog yet, John. Hopefully I will be able to look at it this week while I am on the road.
I don't have it in me to be a martyr, committing spiritual suicide for the sake of UNITY.
Magdalene, these are powerful words. I have some friends who have gone through this as well...the "I can't give up hope and abandon these people. I can show them the truth!"...some are still in the throws of this battle. But in the end we lose the war if it damages us spiritually. Most everyone I know who waited and tried to "fix things where they were" or "bring the group along" regretted the time they spent in this. I am reading some of the councils of some contemporary Greek Elders and one said something to the effect...first save yourself and only then, if you can, bring a few more people with you. I am paraphrasing because I can't seem to find the original comment...but that's the gist of it. Your comment reminded me of it. Orthodox evangelism...no?
In my case, the crisis in the Episcopal Church led me to reading which revealed (to my great astonishment!) that I had been Orthodox in my beliefs all my adult life.
Francis, I thought the exact same thing!!! In fact, things I have always believed but was taught not to believe them as a Lutheran were handed back to me in Orthodoxy. Great astonishment is right!
Sorry anon for having to delete your post. You are right...I may not have a clue yet, just learning to become Orthodox, I agree. But can't leave a post up that includes foul language.
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